How have you/they determined they were advancing towards Tbilisi? Russian sources say they were at the outskirts of Gori and then turned back to allow Georgian police enter the city to keep order. Georgian sources confirm that police is returning to Gori (which they and army had fled before, leaving the civilians unprotected).
And there was no fire, so ceasefire truly it is.
<div class='quotetop'>Цитата(Leszek Deska * 14.8.2008, 12:31) [snapback]255933[/snapback]</div>Are you sure what Russia have minimal chances win PR-battles?And Russia clearly lost PR battle with Georgia as the image of this conflict in free world is as follows: "Russia invaded Georgia".
[/b]
Interestingly...
Have Russia any chance judge Saakashvili in the international court for a genocide?
<div class='quotetop'>Цитата</div>From this time I will only reply to the facts you point to me. Because I dont have time and wish to comment your fantastic dreams about Russia conquaring whole world and/or restoring USSR.ot4e - I'm not saying that Saakshvili said about those tanks. I'm saying about correspondents - English and Polish. It was confirmed by many news agencies, please try to accept the fact that it is war and Russians are not noble knights on white horses who only "enforce peace". I don't understand the sentence about the motive - you have to explain it to let me answer[/b]
Saakashvili said that he is preparing to defense Tbilisi. Immidiadly foreing press, including English, US and may be Polish concluded that Russian Tanks are heading to Tbilisi. That's only provement of critizism.
If Russia wanted to conquare Georgia and got a plan about it, it could be done in 1-2 days at most. We have enough army and equipment to ruin georgian scared force without significant victims. But it is not the target we were heding to. Got it?
Russian aint been noble knights, huh? Thats the main point your tv shows. Did you ever think that may be they are?
Lexad & ot4e - I saw tv coverage showing Russian troops moving from Gori towards Tbilisi. It's the opposite direction then South Ossetia... It was on a highway with a huge road signs above highway saying "Tbilisi" in Latin and Georgian alphabets.
Lexad - the city was deserted, it was abandoned by civilians and military which moved to the capitol to defend it. So there was no unprotected civilians there. Anyway as ot4e wrote - it would be impossible to defend from Russia which was moving it's army to that region for least few last weeks (have you heard about it from your Russian sources?)
IL2T - Russia had really minimal chances to win PR war - it's true. But who should be blamed for that? West that they don't believe or Russia which is lying all the time? Just look at the press coverage in Russia - do you have independent sources? Isn't true that Putin closed down all of them? When I think about freedom of speech in Russia I remind to myself an image of Mrs Tylikova who was mother of Syergey Tylik, an officer onboard of Kursk submarine. During a meeting with fleet generals she tried to shout out what she was thinking about Russian actions taken then, but a nurse approached her and made some injection that made her very calm... This is freedom of speech in Russia.
ot4e - I have never said that Russia had a plan to conquer military Georgia. Of course that it could be done quickly, but as Russia already knows from Afghanistan and Chechnya (and US from Iraq) it's not so easy to keep such land in hands. Such open action against fierce ally of USA would be a disaster for Russian foreign politics. It is a a big problem even now - I'm really sure that for some time there will be no more talks on Russia's membership in WTO or about EU-Russia trade agreement, as there is right of veto which surely will be exercised by at least one state. I've heard even voices to take back from Russia the right to organize Olympic Games in Sochi, but after Olympic Games in Nazi Germany, USSR and now in communist China I'm sure that this will not happened.
"Russian aint been noble knights, huh? Thats the main point your tv shows. Did you ever think that may be they are?"
You know, my wife's grandma and grandpa had just 60th anniversary of their wedding. So they are old enough to personally remember when Red Army entered Poland in 1945. I don't think that you would like to know what they were doing then... I know it from my family stories, it's not from CNN, but I'm sure that you will find a reason why those stories are not true, cause Russians are so good, only world doesn't understand that goodness...
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<div class='quotetop'>Цитата</div>Will have to wait until they arrive there - we have signs "Moscow" all over the country, and you can cross Georgia in a spit.I saw tv coverage showing Russian troops moving from Gori towards Tbilisi. It's the opposite direction then South Ossetia... It was on a highway with a huge road signs above highway saying "Tbilisi" in Latin and Georgian alphabets[/b]
<div class='quotetop'>Цитата</div>Have different information, but this is not that important to fix on.Lexad - the city was deserted, it was abandoned by civilians and military which moved to the capitol to defend it. So there was no unprotected civilians there. It would be impossible to defend from Russia which was moving it's army to that region for least few last weeks [/b]
It would be impossible to defend Tbilisi too, by that logic - what's the point? If they expect Russian attack, that would multiply civil casulaties manyfold - is that how the army should defend the country? That's Palestinian tactics.
Btw, my grandgranddad had much to tell about Polish invading Ukraine during Russian civil war. So you'd better not dig that up. The only difference is that we succeeded, while you failed.
Knights in white armour have become obsolete with Cossacks
<div class='quotetop'>Цитата(Leszek Deska * 14.8.2008, 13:47) [snapback]255942[/snapback]</div>It's enough. I igrored all other, because it's other subject(s)IL2T - Russia had really minimal chances to win PR war - it's true.
[/b]We may discuss that subjects later, if you wish.
<div class='quotetop'>Цитата(Leszek Deska * 14.8.2008, 13:47) [snapback]255942[/snapback]</div>Ossetian peoples.But who should be blamed for that?[/b]
I am glad that your grandma and grandpa exist. I never doubt in that. My both grandpas dead. One died very recently (in 2004) but he was still singing Soviet Patriotical songs and didnt beleive in whatever happening in Russia nowadays.
I still do not understand on what are you building your demands and threats. We've done nothing wrong. You blame us for wishes we dont even really have. Blame your fantazy.
They say that Gori is 35 kms away from Tbilisi. I think our retarded forces will finally reach it if you are right. How long can it take? May be they will talk about this some more weeks or realize reality.
With those unproven facts and blames they try to cover and clean Bush's and Saakashvili's bloody hands. And you with your trustful head are the weapon used to set up the fog.
The Times' analysis of politics:
<div class='quotetop'>Цитата</div>August 14, 2008
Vladimir Putin's mastery checkmates the West
Russia has been biding its time, but its victory in Georgia has been brutal - and brilliant
Michael Binyon
The cartoon images have shown Russia as an angry bear, stretching out a claw to maul Georgia. Russia is certainly angry, and, like a beast provoked, has bared its teeth. But it is the wrong stereotype. What the world has seen last week is a brilliant and brutal display of Russia's national game, chess. And Moscow has just declared checkmate.
Chess is a slow game. One has to be ready to ignore provocations, lose a few pawns and turn the hubris of others into their own entrapment. For years there has been rising resentment within Russia. Some of this is inevitable: the loss of empire, a burning sense of grievance and the fear that in the 1990s, amid domestic chaos and economic collapse, Russia's views no longer mattered.
A generalised resentment, similar to the sour undercurrents of Weimar Germany, began to focus on specific issues: the nonchalance of the Clinton Administration about Russian sensitivities, especially over the Balkans and in opening Nato's door to former Warsaw Pact members; the neo-conservative agenda of the early Bush years that saw no role for Russia in its global agenda; and Washington's ingratitude after 9/11 for vital Kremlin support over terrorism, Afghanistan and intelligence on extremism.
More infuriating was Western encouragement of “freedom” in the former Soviet satellite states that gave carte blanche to forces long hostile to Russia. In the Baltic states, Soviet occupation could be portrayed as worse than the Nazis. EU commissioners from new member states could target Russian policies. Populists in Eastern Europe could ride to power on anti-Russian rhetoric emboldened by Western applause for their fluency in English.
Nowhere was such taunting more wounding than in Ukraine and Georgia, two countries long part of the Russian Empire, whose history, religion and culture were so intertwined with Russia's. Moscow tried, disastrously, to check Western, and particularly American, influence in Ukraine. The clumsy meddling led to the Orange Revolution.
Georgia was a different matter. Relations were always mercurial, but Eduard Shevardnadze, the wily former Soviet Foreign Minister, knew how to keep atavistic animosities in check. Not so his brash successor, Mikheil Saakashvili. From then on, hubris was Tbilisi's undoing.
It was not simply the dismissive rhetoric, the open door to US advisers or the economic illiteracy in forgetting dependence on Russian energy and remittance from across the border; it was the determined attempt to make Georgia a US regional ally and outpost of US influence.
Big powers do not like other big powers poaching. This may not be moral or fair but it is reality, and one that underpins the Security Council veto. The Monroe Doctrine - “hands off the Americas” - has been policy in Washington for 200 years. The US is ready to risk war to keep out not only other powers but hostile ideologies - in Cuba and Nicaragua.
Vladimir Putin lost several pawns on the chessboard - Kosovo, Iraq, Nato membership for the Baltic states, US renunciation of the ABM treaty, US missiles in Poland and the Czech Republic. But he waited.
The trap was set in Georgia. When President Saakashvili blundered into South Ossetia, sending in an army to shell, kill and maim on a vicious scale (against US advice and his promised word), Russia was waiting.
It was not only Mr Saakashvili who thought that he had the distraction of the Olympics to cover him; the Kremlin also knew that Mr Bush was watching basketball, and, in the longer term, that the US army was fully engaged in Iraq and Afghanistan. From the day that the Russian tank brigade raced through the tunnel into South Ossetia, Russia has not made one wrong move. Mr Bush's remarks yesterday notwithstanding, In five days it turned an overreaching blunder by a Western-backed opponent into a devastating exposure of Western impotence, dithering and double standards on respecting national sovereignty (viz Iraq).
The attack was short, sharp and deadly - enough to send the Georgians fleeing in humiliating panic, their rout captured by global television. The destruction was enough to hurt, but not so much that the world would be roused in fury. The timing of the ceasefire was precise: just hours before President Sarkozy could voice Western anger. Moscow made clear that it retained the initiative. And despite sporadic breaches - on both sides - Russia has blunted Georgian charges that this is a war of annihilation.
Moscow can also counter Georgian PR, the last weapon left to Tbilisi. Human rights? Look at what Georgia has done in South Ossetia (and also in Abkhazia). National sovereignty? Look at the detachment of Kosovo from Serbia. False pretexts? Look at Ronald Reagan's invasion of Grenada to “rescue” US medical students. Western outrage? Look at the confused cacophony.
There are lessons everywhere. To the former Soviet republics - remember your geography. To Nato - do you still want to incorporate Caucasian vendettas into your alliance? To Tbilisi - do you want to keep a President who brought this on you? To Washington - does Russia's voice still count for nothing? Like it or not, it counts for a lot.
[/b]
Who wanted photos from Osetia, where Georgians have done nothing Russians are lying about? Were someone's Polish relatives packed in a breadsack for funerals?
http://www.navoine.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?p=551#551
Btw, the grinning men with bristle anxious to fight Georgian army are poor oppressed Chechens.
<div class='quotetop'>Цитата</div>Service Temporarily Unavailable
I think that it's a real discussion only digging at own positions. We will not convince each other. You consider Russia a peaceful state that cares about it's and foreign citizens. I and most of the world classifies Russia as imperialistic state that tries to enlarge it's territory.
I will not convince you and thinking about your remarks about history it looks like you will live with your version of history for ever.
It looks like this war will have negative impact on Russia - it again unified other nations to combat Russian imperialism. It will harm Russian negotiations to join WTO, to sign trade agreement with EU. It speeded up the process of US-Polish negotiations to install missile defence in Poland. I had just seen unofficial information that this agreement will be signed today because US finally agreed on our conditions. Russia will have surely problems with their fleet in Ukrainian port of Crimea... there will be many repercussions.
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<div class='quotetop'>Цитата</div>Well, you started it.I think that it's a real discussion only digging at own positions. We will not convince each other[/b]
<div class='quotetop'>Цитата</div>I'm not. But I do not see its current actions as as appaling horrid exception from the global state of affairs.You consider Russia a peaceful state that cares about it's and foreign citizens[/b]
<div class='quotetop'>Цитата</div>Same for you.I will not convince you and thinking about your remarks about history it looks like you will live with your version of history for ever[/b]
<div class='quotetop'>Цитата</div>You wish.it again unified other nations to combat Russian imperialism[/b]
<div class='quotetop'>Цитата</div>As if this would not have happened otherwise. Sheesh...speeded up the process of US-Polish negotiations to install missile defence in Poland[/b]
<div class='quotetop'>Цитата</div>"If Russian fleet cannot enter Crimea, Crimea will enter Russian fleet"Russia will have surely problems with their fleet in Ukrainian port of Crimea[/b]
<div class='quotetop'>Цитата</div>Ясен пень, зачем. Именно их и будут подавлять если чего не дай Бог, И повезёт если наводки на них не подкачают, а то универ какой могут и задеть.Why USA missile defence really need for Poland?[/b]
Это называется - прикрыться живым щитом.
<div class='quotetop'>Цитата(Leszek Deska * 14.8.2008, 22:35) [snapback]255987[/snapback]</div>Do you know Newthon rules in Physics? The force of action is equal to the force of reaction. Russia needs WTO no more than it needs Russia. I doubt that any wise country will do any actions against Russia. Your military defence you can install where you want. You can also dig underground and live there forever, no matter for me.It looks like this war will have negative impact on Russia - it again unified other nations to combat Russian imperialism. It will harm Russian negotiations to join WTO, to sign trade agreement with EU. It speeded up the process of US-Polish negotiations to install missile defence in Poland. I had just seen unofficial information that this agreement will be signed today because US finally agreed on our conditions. Russia will have surely problems with their fleet in Ukrainian port of Crimea... there will be many repercussions.
[/b]
So, few days passed since Russians and Georgians agreed to cease fire. Yet still Russians occupy Gori, Poti and the city in between Abkhasia and Poti. Tenths thousands of Georgians were displaced, South Ossetians pillage houses in Gori. Do you still claim that it is bringing peace?
*Lexad "If Russian fleet cannot enter Crimea, Crimea will enter Russian fleet"
Another example of policy of peaceful state - Russia. Of course it's just internet rubbish - talking we both know that it's impossible to break away Crimea from Ukraine.
*IL2T "Why USA missile defence really need for Poland?"
We don't need it, it is USA that needs missile defense. We were asked to install it because of geography. It was taking so long to sign that deal (Czechs signed it some time ago) because Poland wanted something in return. I think that situation in Georgia made USA more elastic and they finally agreed to our terms. We wanted patriots for short range defense, special pact of mutual protection and to engage US into process of modernizing our army.
Is there anyone who can explain to me in few words why Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs consider defensive weapon a threat? If Russia is so peaceful state as you say, then why it bothers with defensive weapon in other countries?
*ot4e "Russia needs WTO no more than it needs Russia."
I'm not convinced. I think that harm to Russia for not being in WTO is much more that to WTO to doesn't have Russia. It's a matter of scale, it was the same with Russian embargo on Polish meat. It was not so harmful for Russia as it was for Poland. Yet we managed to export that meat to the West (and get better price, so it was not very bad).
"I doubt that any wise country will do any actions against Russia."
I am sure that few countries will. Especially in cases when veto might be exercised. Such states as Baltic States will surely do, I'm not sure about Poland, but it's also possible. It's up to our government, which is not Russiphobic as our president, so it's not sure. FYI - I don't support our president, I support the government as I don't have such bad feelings about Russians as our president (I have only very bad opinion about Russian government, not about people).
"Your military defence you can install where you want."
Of course we can. There is nothing you can do about it. However I appreciate the fact that you do not support the opinion of your government.
"You can also dig underground and live there forever, no matter for me."
Same for meI tell you a joke that was popular in Poland when Gagarin flew to space: One Polish men shouts to other:
- Hey, hey, have you heard the news? Russians flew to space!
- All of them?
- No, just one...
- So why do you bother me?
*sweeper
"By the way, why Polish troops do nothing to stop the destruction of peaceful Georgian citizens?"
Stupid question, but I don't have stupid answer
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<div class='quotetop'>Цитата</div>This only proves that your sides lie. They say that need shield against Iran. Why do they lie? Because you(polish people) are dolls in the hand of Americans and you have to keep the circus they have started. I am really sick of dual standarts, critizism and lie.Of course we can. There is nothing you can do about it. However I appreciate the fact that you do not support the opinion of your government[/b]
And I DO support opinion of my goverment at the point I see it.
<div class='quotetop'>Цитата</div>Georgian FYM approved that control under Gori is returned to georgian police. I dont know where did you take those pillage reports. Probably georgians themselves started pillaging equipment they have thrown retreating from Gori.So, few days passed since Russians and Georgians agreed to cease fire. Yet still Russians occupy Gori, Poti and the city in between Abkhasia and Poti. Tenths thousands of Georgians were displaced, South Ossetians pillage houses in Gori. Do you still claim that it is bringing peace?[/b]
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