<div class='quotetop'>Цитата(Leszek Deska * 15.8.2008, 23:40) [snapback]256124[/snapback]</div>Could I suppose that you don't know how this sort of decisions is made?[на]sweeper
"By the way, why Polish troops do nothing to stop the destruction of peaceful Georgian citizens?"
Stupid question, but I don't have stupid answer[/b]
Army and it's commander-in-chief obviously doesn't have the right to attack by his own decision. It should be done according to resolution of executive branch of power.
So, the answer could be something like "Council of Ministers haven't sent them".
But, was there if only one person who requested about it?. I think no.
Nobody could imagine that Polish Army start to climb on the Caucasus to defend some Georgians instead of Polish citizens. Do you agree?
<div class='quotetop'>Цитата(Leszek Deska * 15.8.2008, 23:40) [snapback]256124[/snapback]</div>Why do you think it is impossible? No paratroopers? Or all of them are saboteurs, not defenders of non-combatants?Of course it's not possible and it would be very dangerous as it could trigger large scale conflict.[/b]
OK, let's think they are just afraid.
<div class='quotetop'>Цитата</div>You are too naive. Poland used veto because it was told to. Meat, potatoes or pop-corn that's not the reason.It's a matter of scale, it was the same with Russian embargo on Polish meat. It was not so harmful for Russia as it was for Poland. Yet we managed to export that meat to the West (and get better price, so it was not very bad[/b]
Leszek, How about this video?
Venal American Media FOX NEWS about South Ossetian Conflict
*ot4e
"This only proves that your sides lie."
I don't get your point. I wrote that we don't need that shield - how does this proves that "my" side lies? It's clear that that shield will not protect Poland only states far away from long range missiles - I hope that you know how it will work. So it's obvious that we (as Poland) does not need it. We only need it to make Poland included in the US defense system. Since this missile defenses will be installed US will be much more interested in defending Poland.
"They say that need shield against Iran. Why do they lie?"
Why is it a lie? Let me state few facts about missile defense:
- it will contain 10 anti-rockets
- Russia has hundreds or even more of rockets
- Iran is still working (or maybe it has few already) of such long range rockets
Can't you see that this missile defense will not decrease the threat of Russian attack, but will let the West to have a chance to shot down Iranian few rockets, if launched.
I understand that this missile defense decrease to some small degree Russian military potential, but when you talked to me you were assuring me that Russia is a peaceful state that doesn't want to attack anyone. So where is the problem?. For me it looks that Russia is still a state that wants to pose a threat to others.
"Because you(polish people) are dolls in the hand of Americans and you have to keep the circus they have started. I am really sick of dual standarts, critizism and lie."
Good joke, give me another. It seems that you start to get upset - you shouldn't. I could answer that you (russian people) are dolls in hands of your leader (tsar, first secretary, Putin, whoever). You had never had in your history a working democracy and you simply need an authoritarian state.
I still think that it's better to install missile defense than to be angry at someone that he is installing missile defense and my rockets will not be so dangerous anymore.
For me speaking that Russia is not a threat to anyone and at the same time being angry that other stat installs missile defense is hypocritical.
"And I DO support opinion of my goverment at the point I see it."
So you think that defensive weapon is an act of aggression. Interesting, but I totally do not understand you. I've already asked you (all of you) - can anyone explain it to me how is it possible to attack someone with use of missile defense?
"Georgian FYM approved that control under Gori is returned to georgian police. I dont know where did you take those pillage reports. Probably georgians themselves started pillaging equipment they have thrown retreating from Gori."
First of all - Russian stated that they're handing over control of Gori to Goergians several times and each time they changed their mind. For now Russians are occupying more and more of Georgian territory. How long Russians might move deeper into Georgia and you will still say that they only bring peace?
*sweeper
In Poland to send troops abroad for a war there has to be a "resolution" of Polish Parliament (I think that both chambers must agree - Sejm and Senat). It's not a decision of Council of Ministers.
"Nobody could imagine that Polish Army start to climb on the Caucasus to defend some Georgians instead of Polish citizens. Do you agree?"
I can imagine, but only if it would be a peacekeeping mission (with UN mandate). I can't imagine Polish troops to go there to fight with Russia.
*ot4e
"You are too naive. Poland used veto because it was told to. Meat, potatoes or pop-corn that's not the reason."
Someone is naive here for sure. If you would know our previous government (which used this veto, from Law & Justice party) you would not said thatthey are stubborn and listen to nobody. Hopefully they were replaced by other party (Civic Platform) and they are not so anti-Russian as their predecessors.
This previous government did anything that could to make our relations with Russia worse. The only thing that justifies them is that Russia was doing the same since 1989.
*IL2T
"Leszek, How about this video?"
Interesting. As I wrote before - I know that the first attack was done by Georgians, I haven't justified them. I'm discussing here, on Russian forum the issue of Russian exaggerated military response that led to huge humanitarian disaster in Georgia.
Петиция до Firaxis чтобы добавить Польшу к Civ: http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/224875277 http://www.civilization.org.pl/ - польский клуб цив-маньяков www.leszekbiega.pl
http://exiledonline.com/war-nerd-south-oss...r-of-my-dreams/
<div class='quotetop'>Цитата</div>[quote]
And the more he shrinks, the more you pay for believing in him. The Georgians were na
http://exiledonline.com/the-cnn-effect-geo...mation-warfare/
<div class='quotetop'>Цитата</div>Leszek, read it and say its wrong...Georgian leaders were making collect calls to just about every influential person on Wall Street, convincing them that Georgia was the victim of Russian aggression even as Georgian rockets were leveling Tskhinvali.
The pro-Georgian CNN effect was so strong, in fact, that CNN used footage of Tskhinvali for a report on the destruction in the Georgian town of Gori. Check it out.
When Russia tried to reiterate that it was not attacking civilian targets, Georgians claimed that Russian jets were bombing Western-financed oil pipelines deep inside Georgia proper. It was an utter lie, but that didn’t stop the headline from hanging up on Drudge Report for two whole days. Even now, after Russia signed an agreement to stop fighting, a disheveled and sleep deprived Saakashvili accuses Russian troops of attacking central Gori and moving tanks to take over Tbilisi. Who cares if it’s true. The Russian side is silent on the matter.
[/b]
<div class='quotetop'>Цитата</div>Up until now, this war was framed as a simple tale of Good Helpless Democratic Guy Georgia versus Bad Savage Fascist Guy Russia. In fact, it is far more complex than this, morally and historically.
[/b]
Vox - I'm not defending Georgia. I condemned several times here that attack of Georgian Army on South Ossetia. I know that it caused a lot of bad - killed people, razed buildings, lots of refugees...
I only was astonished by the scale of military response from Russia. It was so exaggerated and caused even more tragedies as the initial attack. Unofficial sources say that 4.000 Georgians were killed but Georgian government does not confirm it because it's afraid of Georgian people reaction (loss of support of own nation). Russian attacks displaced tenths thousands of Georgian (and even before that war there were 250K refugees in Georgia from previous war). Destroyed and still occupied cities, destroyed infrastructure - everything in the name of bringing peace... I just can't stand the irony of Russian government.
The good point is that it looks like the cease fire will be finally obeyed - I've just read that Gori was freed and only 4 cities are still occupied. I hope that Russians will finally pull out of Georgia and will let them live as they want.
As for Abkhasia and South Ossetia - I think that those regions should get high level of autonomy, international peacekeeping troops (not Russian and not Georgian as those are sides of the conflict and does not guarantee peace). Then after some time the legal status of those republics should be disputed.
I hope that peace will be stable in that region and as a result of this - this thread will not be active...
Петиция до Firaxis чтобы добавить Польшу к Civ: http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/224875277 http://www.civilization.org.pl/ - польский клуб цив-маньяков www.leszekbiega.pl
да че вы паритесь, горбатого могила исправит
http://www.inosmi.ru/translation/243316.html
"Россия - смертельный враг не только Грузии, но и Польши"
("Gazeta Wyborcza", Польша)
вот так, не больше не меньше. а вы тут объяснить что-то пытаетесь...
<div class='quotetop'>Цитата(Gromozeka * 17.8.2008, 17:07) [snapback]256302[/snapback]</div>Да чего мелочиться: Тбилиси, Варшава, Таллин, еще какие?Лешек - а Цхинвали по этим сводкам грузинскй город?Можно перечислить города которые удерживают русские?
[/b]
Мы собираем информацию о правде в конфликте Осетии и Грузии,
которая может убедить в правоте русских людей.
Выкладывайте либо ссылку на эту информацию, либо у себя на ресурсе
возможно у себя на блогах, сайтах.
Тут информация по поводу нестыковок прапоганды США, Грузии
и правда для европейцев, американцев, для всего мира.
Раскидывайте где только возможно - на русских и зарубежных форумах, блогах,
коментариях к статьям, газетах или журналах.
Если есть какая то информация - пишите я добавлю.
Помгите европейцам и американцам узнать правду !
Спасибо всем кто откликнулся! Помогите открыть правду миру.
Европа должна узнать правду, а не ложь американских СМИ !
Спасибо всем, кто начал помогать и кто поддержал нас.
Truth about South Ossetia War
http://www.nebog.com/truthaboutwar.htm
<div class='quotetop'>Цитата</div>Спарк, это ссылка на комметарии к статье., а по-польски я не понимаю... Причем называется она не так как ты написалhttp://www.inosmi.ru/translation/243316.html
"Россия - смертельный враг не только Грузии, но и Польши"
("Gazeta Wyborcza", Польша)
вот так, не больше не меньше. а вы тут объяснить что-то пытаетесь...
[/b]
<div class='quotetop'>Цитата(Leszek Deska * 17.8.2008, 15:36) [snapback]256299[/snapback]</div>Exaggregated you say? You think Russia should count each tank, airplane and armor vehicle and bring in Ossetia exactly same amount of troops? And let the conflict last for years?Vox - I'm not defending Georgia. I condemned several times here that attack of Georgian Army on South Ossetia. I know that it caused a lot of bad - killed people, razed buildings, lots of refugees...
I only was astonished by the scale of military response from Russia. It was so exaggerated and caused even more tragedies as the initial attack. Unofficial sources say that 4.000 Georgians were killed but Georgian government does not confirm it because it's afraid of Georgian people reaction (loss of support of own nation). Russian attacks displaced tenths thousands of Georgian (and even before that war there were 250K refugees in Georgia from previous war). Destroyed and still occupied cities, destroyed infrastructure - everything in the name of bringing peace... I just can't stand the irony of Russian government.
[/b]
I think Russia reaction was absolutely normal - use full possible force to stop the conflict, where their own citizens and military (peacekeepers) were dying every minute.
Besides , Georgia had relatively large and modern army with all arm branches - navy, aviation, long range artillery. Ossetia is very small, so could be shelled from Georgian territory. So if Russia want to ensure safety for troops and population, it should neutralize Georgian troops and military infrastructure on Georgian territory.
The facts says that Russia attacked only military objects, not civilian. But, it is not possible that modern war would harmless to civilians, so some was wounded and killed. It is terrible, but inevitable.
But is it is very hypocritical when Saakashvili blames Russia in that, He should know it cant be war without casualities. May be, when he began his aggression he thought that only ossetian civilians would be killed, but reality differs.
And i think Georgian people should ask their democratically elected president and his goverment, why they perished under russian bombs...
<div class='quotetop'>(SPARC * 18.8.2008, 5:49) [snapback]256347[/snapback]</div>If you want to follow internet commentaries then go ahead. Only remember that most of them are posted by 15 years old stupid people who are boring during IT lessons in high schools and it has nothing to do with public opinion.да че вы паритесь, горбатого могила исправит
http://www.inosmi.ru/translation/243316.html
"Россия - смертельный враг не только Грузии, но и Польши"
("Gazeta Wyborcza", Польша)
вот так, не больше не меньше. а вы тут объяснить что-то пытаетесь...
[/b]
<div class='quotetop'>(OT4E * 18.8.2008, 8:30) [snapback]256357[/snapback]</div><div class='quotetop'>(Gromozeka * 17.8.2008, 17:07) [snapback]256302[/snapback]Да чего мелочиться: Тбилиси, Варшава, Таллин, еще какие?Лешек - а Цхинвали по этим сводкам грузинскй город?Можно перечислить города которые удерживают русские?
[/b]
[/b][/quote]
Tskhinvali is legally part of Georgia. Will it be still be Georgian - we will see. For now Russians are digging there, of course only to enforce peace.
ot4e - hands off Warsaw, stick to your Moscow.
<div class='quotetop'>(Vox * 18.8.2008, 13:44) [snapback]256408[/snapback]</div>Of course, poor good Russia, whole world doesn't understand how good Russia is. It's coming with gifts: tanks, APCs, bombers but hosting states are always unhappy with those visits. I wonder why...
Exaggregated you say? You think Russia should count each tank, airplane and armor vehicle and bring in Ossetia exactly same amount of troops? And let the conflict last for years?
I think Russia reaction was absolutely normal - use full possible force to stop the conflict, where their own citizens and military (peacekeepers) were dying every minute.
Besides , Georgia had relatively large and modern army with all arm branches - navy, aviation, long range artillery. Ossetia is very small, so could be shelled from Georgian territory. So if Russia want to ensure safety for troops and population, it should neutralize Georgian troops and military infrastructure on Georgian territory.
The facts says that Russia attacked only military objects, not civilian. But, it is not possible that modern war would harmless to civilians, so some was wounded and killed. It is terrible, but inevitable.
But is it is very hypocritical when Saakashvili blames Russia in that, He should know it cant be war without casualities. May be, when he began his aggression he thought that only ossetian civilians would be killed, but reality differs.
And i think Georgian people should ask their democratically elected president and his goverment, why they perished under russian bombs...
[/b]
The point of view of Russians is so strange that we can't even find a way to discuss. I can't understand how can you believe in that peace-bringing story. Russians simply used a pretext to destroy Georgia as a punishment for it's pro-Western aspirations. I think that in long term it will be very bad for Russia: it showed the real face of Russia and united nations against it.
Few examples:
Sarkozy warned yesterday Miedviediev that if Russia will still postpone retreating its forces from Georgia he will call EU summit and sanctions will be put in place against Russia. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7567184.stm
Merkel said in Tbilisi that Georgia will be part of NATO.
"Nato ministers are expected to gather this week to discuss the crisis. The US is backing efforts by both Georgia and Ukraine to join the alliance, and on Sunday Mrs Merkel offered her support to Tbilisi's bid."
Surely EU-Russia trade agreement will not be introduced for a long time (there is a right of veto).
WTO will not see Russia in nearest future.
Do you need more examples?
Петиция до Firaxis чтобы добавить Польшу к Civ: http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/224875277 http://www.civilization.org.pl/ - польский клуб цив-маньяков www.leszekbiega.pl
<div class='quotetop'>Цитата</div>Schlesien (Silesia) is legally part of Germany, temporarily occupied by pity PolesTskhinvali is legally part of Georgia[/b]
<div class='quotetop'>Цитата</div>ja!Merkel said in Tbilisi that Georgia will be part of NATO.
"Nato ministers are expected to gather this week to discuss the crisis. The US is backing efforts by both Georgia and Ukraine to join the alliance, and on Sunday Mrs Merkel offered her support to Tbilisi's bid."
Surely EU-Russia trade agreement will not be introduced for a long time (there is a right of veto).
WTO will not see Russia in nearest future.
Do you need more examples?[/b]
Russian Nukes will destroy Warsaw.
<div class='quotetop'>Цитата</div>Putin will burn PolandPutin - you will burn in hell.[/b]
Amen!
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