Help stop war in Georgia

[Lexad]

Russian troops attacked Georgian civilians in Abkhazia, you say? Leszek, specially for you:
<div class='quotetop'>Цитата</div>

CHKHALTA, Georgia, Aug 13 (Reuters) - Jubilant rebel troops proclaimed the "liberation" of Abkhazia on Wednesday as they surveyed a remote gorge abandoned by Georgian forces, who dropped weapons, ammunition and clothes in their flight.
The Abkhazian rebel forces took advantage of the defeat of Tbilisi&#39;s troops in South Ossetia, another separatist area where the Russian army drove back the Georgians at the weekend, to capture the Kodori gorge on Tuesday.
"Abkhazia has been completely liberated, there are now no Georgian troops on our territory. Abkhazia has reinstated its territorial sovereignty, we are just happy we have peace," Alexander Melnik, the unrecognised state&#39;s defence minister, told Reuters.
Russian troops did not appear to have been present before or during the assault. This correspondent has not seen a single soldier in Russian uniform since they pulled out two days ago.
"They left just before the operation started," Melnik said.
He was speaking in Chkhalta, once capital of the Georgian-backed administration of Abkhazia and now under total rebel control. The headquarters of the Georgian-backed government was almost totally destroyed.
Boxes of bullets, grenades and shells, mostly with English-language labels, lay on the roadside. At one point troops had to move a pile of mortar shells before they could drive on.
One stockpile of ammunition, machine guns and mortars on five large trailers had been mined by the retreating Georgians, but the explosives had failed to explode.
The Kodori gorge was the only part of Abkhazia, wedged between the Black Sea and the Caucasus mountains, still held by Tbilisi when its forces were defeated by the rebels in 1993.
The only trace of Georgian control was the still-operational Geo Magti mobile phone network which allowed some contact with the outside world.
Several kilometres (miles) from the government building was the undamaged barracks building.
The Georgian troops had abandoned jeans, flak jackets, helmets, toiletries, magazines, underpants and half-packed rucksacks when they fled.
English-language instructions for a Bushmaster automatic rifle lay by one bed, and piles of destroyed American-made guns still smoked by the side of the road.
A pair of Abkhazian soldiers brandished an undestroyed assault rifle they had found. The only shooting this correspondent heard was them firing into the air in triumph.
Almost all the civilian inhabitants of the gorge appeared to have fled, and their houses were empty.
The village of Azhara, further up the gorge, was deserted although cattle still wandered between some of the houses. The houses were intact with no sign of shell damage.
"Perhaps some went to Georgia, perhaps some went up the mountains. We can see their cattle though, so they cannot have gone far," Melnik said. "I can guarantee that now this will be a peaceful place for the cattle."
(Writing by Oliver Bullough; Editing by Angus MacSwan)
[/b]

[UserCivAlex]

Deutsche arbeiten, jude brigadier....

[White Hawk]

<div class='quotetop'>Цитата(UserCivAlex * 13.8.2008, 16:03) [snapback]255824[/snapback]</div>

Deutsche arbeiten, jude brigadier....
[/b]

точно свердловский олбанец

[UserCivAlex]

если что, я и еще раз зарегестрируюсь

[LDeska]

<div class='quotetop'>(Lexad * 13.8.2008, 12:37) [snapback]255809[/snapback]</div>

Who cares about that legal blabber? [/b]

I care. But as we all know Russians doesn&#39;t. If they only have enough tanks, they seize what they want. Half of Europe, Chechnya, now Georgia.

<div class='quotetop'>(Lexad * 13.8.2008, 12:37) [snapback]255809[/snapback]</div>

I doubt you can find that much peaceful citizens there [/b]

I haven&#39;t wrote that they were peaceful civilians, as it was not stated there. I just stated "1500" because I didn&#39;t knew if they were civilians or not...

<div class='quotetop'>(Lexad * 13.8.2008, 12:37) [snapback]255809[/snapback]</div>

Also, I would recommend you to doublecheck the news provided by Georgian officials[/b]

I totally agree - they supply news that are not trustable. I&#39;m not taking those news serious, just like those from Russian news agency or officials.

<div class='quotetop'></div>

Almost all the civilian inhabitants of the gorge appeared to have fled, and their houses were empty. [/b]

That&#39;s exactly what I quoted few posts before.

Georgians are now in retreat, Russians doesn&#39;t care about cease fire that was signed yesterday and advance towards Tbilisi:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7558399.stm

<div class='quotetop'></div>

Violence has flared up in Georgia, where Russian tanks have been seen patrolling the town of Gori, says the BBC&#39;s Gavin Hewitt near the scene.

People leaving the town say there is looting going on involving South Ossetian separatists.

The BBC&#39;s Sarah Rainsford in the South Ossetian capital, Tskhinvali, says many buildings have been totally destroyed.

A ceasefire is in place, but it seems to be very fragile, correspondents say.

In Gori, the Russian tanks seem to be dismantling and destroying Georgian army bases in the town, our correspondent says.

It is not clear where the Russian convoy on the Tibilisi road is heading. [/b]

This is not a news from any side of the conflict - it&#39;s from eyewitness - reporter of BBC. Of course now all the Russian patriots will say that it is biased propaganda and only Konsomolskaia Pravda says truth... (irony intended)

So.... enforcing peace you say, Mr. Putin, right?

[Teddy]

<div class='quotetop'>Цитата(Leszek Deska * 13.8.2008, 17:32) [snapback]255848[/snapback]</div>

<div class='quotetop'>Цитата(Lexad * 13.8.2008, 12:37) [snapback]255809[/snapback]

Who cares about that legal blabber? [/b]

I care. But as we all know Russians doesn&#39;t. If they only have enough tanks, they seize what they want. Half of Europe, Chechnya, now Georgia.
[/b][/quote]

What a pity - you forgot Napoleonic Wars, whose main lesson is: if Russians only have enough Cossacks, they seize all the Europe

[Lexad]

<div class='quotetop'>Цитата</div>

This is... from eyewitness - reporter of BBC[/b]

TIn the text you quoted there is no evidence, like "I saw this and that" (except destroyed Tskhinvali): <div class='quotetop'>Цитата</div>

Russian tanks have been seen patrolling the town of Gori, says the BBC&#39;s Gavin Hewitt near the scene[/b]

<div class='quotetop'>Цитата</div>

People leaving the town say [/b]

<div class='quotetop'>Цитата</div>

Russian tanks seem to be dismantling [/b]

So come later with something more material.

[LDeska]

<div class='quotetop'>(Teddy * 13.8.2008, 15:50) [snapback]255849[/snapback]</div>

What a pity - you forgot Napoleonic Wars, whose main lesson is: if Russians only have enough Cossacks, they seize all the Europe
[/b]

Hmm Russian won then? As far as I know Napoleon lost to General Winter, not to Russians

OK, let&#39;s wait until more data will arrive. How long does it take for a tank to get from Gori to Tbilisi? We&#39;ll see in a moment...

[IL2T]

<div class='quotetop'>Цитата(Leszek Deska * 13.8.2008, 19:05) [snapback]255868[/snapback]</div>

How long does it take for a tank to get from Gori to Tbilisi?
[/b]

Noone russian tanks goes to Tbilisi.

[Lexad]

<div class='quotetop'>Цитата</div>

Hmm Russian won then? As far as I know Napoleon lost to General Winter, not to Russians [/b]

You know it not, then. Until arrving closer to Smolensk on the way back (i.e. after Borodino, Tarutino, Maloyaroslavets), the winter wasn&#39;t any special. Try to find some factual historical works instead - e.g. Tarle (http://militera.lib.ru/h/tarle1/09.html) - there was no strong colds until French army crossed Vyazma on the way back, and severe frosts started even later.

Quote (Russian):
<div class='quotetop'>Цитата</div>

В интересных записках русского генерала Крейца, проделавшего всю кампанию, я нашел следующее свидетельство: ”Несправедливо французские писатели обвиняют холод причиною гибели армии Наполеона. От Малого Ярославца до Вязьмы время было очень теплое; от Вязьмы до Смоленска были приморозки. Около г. Ельни выпал первый снег, но очень малый. Днепр однако же покрылся прозрачною льдиною, по которой еще никто не смел ходить, кроме первого Нея. От Смоленска до Борисова холод был сильнее, но сносный, мы ночевали на поле без крыш”. В Борисове генерал Крейц в первый раз ночевал под крышей. Это между прочим иллюстрирует, в каких условиях находилась и русская армия в этом походе. ”От Борисова до Вильно морозы были весьма суровы, и здесь по большей части французы перемерзли. Они погибли больше от голода, изнурения, беспорядка, грабительств и потери всякой дисциплины[/b]

[OT4E]

Second time Saakashvili cant differ his own tanks from russians. Why do BBC and other trust him?

Leszek, please stop all those insinuations. Russia isnt going to conquare the world. Why? Because it is wise. What shall we say if we occupy Tbilisi. We will be instantly embagoed by whole the world and jugded. Of course all inform agencies lies and our aint exceptions but I can bet that Russians deal with georgians fondly with so much love and care as it is possible during the war

And it is one of the most important parts of criminalistic to prove the motive. What&#39;s the motive, my friend?

[Vox]

The Media War is going on, Leszek. And You are one of the victims of it

No matter how many tanks Russia has and how many civilian ossetins was killed in Tskhinvali. The field of battle is your brain and BBC+CNN seized it

Russia occupying Georgia, WWII won Americans, Napoleon just freeze...
TV says that Moscow is Resident of Evil, so it is.

[White Hawk]

<div class='quotetop'>Цитата</div>

TV says that Moscow is Resident of Evil, so it is.[/b]

Yes, of cause!

Just a minute, please! I will ride by my own war bear across the streets of my city!
In Ryasan is terrible cold today. I give my ushanka, matrioshka and balalayka, many vodka and go to the bystraya rechka (quick river) to bukhat (drink to drunk)

[Vigo]

Ястреб, я думал ты тока по немецки, а ты оказывается полиглот

Лешек, существует 2 варианта восприятия информации -
1) Довериться кому то;
2) Изучить вопрос и сделать выводы самому.

Я думаю ты разумный человек чтоб делать выводы самому.
Русский ты знаешь, поэтому почитай: http://osradio.ru/... хотя наверное уже читал... ну а если ты приверженец другого мнения, то почитай это http://www.kavkazcenter.com/russ/... выводы делать тебе. И личное пожелание к тебе - будь объективным у себя на форуме.

[Vox]

<div class='quotetop'>Цитата(Leszek Deska * 13.8.2008, 13:10) [snapback]255803[/snapback]</div>

In my opinion there was no mass-attacks as you are claiming. It&#39;s only propaganda of Russian news agency (which are dependant on Russian government). It&#39;s really easy to check it - if a city was destroyed as you claim, then in two or three days we should all see tv coverage from independent from Russian authority news agencies. If this will happen I will surely post here that I was wrong. But I know how news agencies in Russia work, so I don&#39;t suspect it to be possible.
[/b]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008...eorgia.russia3


<div class='quotetop'>Цитата</div>

n villages close to the city there were many burned out houses, and others were still ablaze. In the city itself it was clear that claims the city had been levelled to the ground by artillery were exaggerated. However, it was also evident that while some neighbourhoods were intact, there were patches of terrible destruction.
[/b]

<div class='quotetop'>Цитата</div>

Close to the centre of the city Russian officers led the group to the city&#39;s main hospital which was hit by small arms fire and shells during the first days of fighting. Doctors at the hospital said they had been forced to carry out operations in corridors and the basement of the building without electricity, water or light.

Tina Zakharova, one of the doctors, pointed out chunks of shrapnel which had hit the building.

"This is the humanitarian aid that Georgia sent us," she said, "and that," she said, pointing at a field hospital nearby, "is the help we received from Russia. Which do you think we should chose?" She added: "I&#39;ve never heard anything so monstrous as people shelling a hospital." [/b]

Is it enough, Leczek?
What should they choose?

[White Hawk]

<div class='quotetop'>Цитата</div>

Ястреб, я думал ты тока по немецки, а ты оказывается полиглот[/b]

Жисть заставит - не так раскорячишься, хотя временами ловлю себыя на мысли, что по немецки сказал бы с меньшими напрягами и поизящней.

[Vigo]

<div class='quotetop'>Цитата(White Hawk * 14.8.2008, 1:46) [snapback]255907[/snapback]</div>

Жисть заставит - не так раскорячишься, хотя временами ловлю себыя на мысли, что по немецки сказал бы с меньшими напрягами и поизящней.
[/b]

И без акцента.

[White Hawk]

<div class='quotetop'>Цитата(Vigo * 14.8.2008, 1:50) [snapback]255909[/snapback]</div>

<div class='quotetop'>Цитата(White Hawk * 14.8.2008, 1:46) [snapback]255907[/snapback]

Жисть заставит - не так раскорячишься, хотя временами ловлю себыя на мысли, что по немецки сказал бы с меньшими напрягами и поизящней.
[/b]

И без акцента.
[/b][/quote]
Ага
Ну вот блин - ну всплывает в башке немецкий, а когда гоню немецкий - тогда русский

ЗЫ
Прошу прощения у Лешека, немецкий не более любим поляками, чем русский. А у меня оба акцента

[Bemep]

Sonth Ossetia is not part of Georgia and never by it was not. Simply Georgia declared it the territory and all, and the "world" acceded to it.
And yet Georgia went out from the USSR ILLEGALLY in a 90m year. Them nobody interfered with. At the end of 1991 when the USSR halted the existence legally. Russia acknowledged Georgia. (it was now necessary to correct this error ) Literally in a week or even less than in osetii a referendum passed where about 90% spoke out for independence from Georgia. What was done by Georgia? began war! After stopping of war the Russian peacemakers were there entered, and they are there on the basis of decision of UNO.
Putting to death the citizens of Russia, both among ossetic and among peacemakers Georgia actually declared Russia war. And yet, if Russia did not begin decisive military operations against Georgia, last would cut out all the ossetic and neither BBC neither SNN nor would say not words about it.
Putting to death the citizens of Russia, both among ossetic and among peacemakers Georgia actually declared Russia war. And yet, if Russia did not begin polnomasshtabnye military operations against georgia, last would cut out all the ossetic and neither VVS neither SNN nor would say not words about it. As already worldly-wise not once.
In 1801, when Georgia entered in the complement of Russia (it sued for it as early as 1794) its population was 60 000 persons. Now in the world of 4,5 million Georgian. After "dissociating" from the USSR, about million people immigrated from Georgia preeminently in Russia.

ps. Poland also illegally moved away from Russia. In Russia of betrayers does not forget, especially when they constantly operate in harm Russia. And occasion we will find somehow

pps. Text is translated on English at a help on-line - translator

[LDeska]

I saw yesterday two tv coverages showing Russian tanks heading from Gori to Tbilisi. One from BBC, second from TVN (Polish privately owned channel). Both were made by different correspondents who were personally in the outskirts of Gori and showed Russian tanks heading for Tbilisi.

I wrote yesterday "Russians doesn&#39;t care about cease fire that was signed yesterday and advance towards Tbilisi" - it was right, only Russians haven&#39;t reached Tbilisi - I thought that it will be like this. As ot4e noticed it would be impossible to explain even to Russians. And Russia clearly lost PR battle with Georgia as the image of this conflict in free world is as follows: "Russia invaded Georgia". People like me who investigated it deeply know that Georgia attacked first, but even those people (including me) think that no Georgian soldier left Georgia. They tried to regain power in separatist region of South Ossetia, which no matter what Russian propaganda says is worldwide considered as part of Georgia. Let me remind you that even Russian Federation does not recognize South Ossetia as a state.

ot4e - I&#39;m not saying that Saakshvili said about those tanks. I&#39;m saying about correspondents - English and Polish. It was confirmed by many news agencies, please try to accept the fact that it is war and Russians are not noble knights on white horses who only "enforce peace". I don&#39;t understand the sentence about the motive - you have to explain it to let me answer.

Vox - Russia is occupying Georgia - this is clear to everyone. How can you call in other way Russian presence in Georgia (even far outside of separatist regions) ? About WW2 - it was won by coalition, I know that you think about the fact that most of the fighting was on the Eastern Front. I don&#39;t know how others but I know that about 70% of German losses was on Eastern Front. About Napoleon - I&#39;m not an expert on this, so I don&#39;t want to argue.

Vox - in the link which you have provided there is such sentence about Tschvanili:
<div class='quotetop'></div>

In the city itself it was clear that claims the city had been levelled to the ground by artillery were exaggerated.[/b]

I&#39;m sure that people died there and I have never justified that attack. I only say that Russian news agencies lie about casualties to make you - Russians thinking that Russia is the side that is protecting civilians, which as I know from history of Russia is very unlikely.

Bemep - you play superb civ, but I can&#39;t agree with you. South Ossetia is part Georgia as I wrote before. There is no state in the world that recognize South Ossetia as a state. I&#39;m sorry but I don&#39;t understand whole part about Poland... "Poland also illegally moved away from Russia. In Russia of betrayers does not forget, especially when they constantly operate in harm Russia. And occasion we will find somehow" - you mean that Poland had no right to break away from Soviet bloc????? You deny us our right to be independent????? You threat us with something?????

Sometimes I think that Russians are from Asia, not from Europe, you have so different standards... wars, threats, occupations. Can&#39;t you people live in peace with your neighbours? Even civ-players threats others, I have never seen a German or a French threatening a Pole because our governments had different opinion in some area (for example second gulf war).