Help stop war in Georgia

[sweeper]

Leszek, look here

[Lexad]

На кого следующего нападет Россия? Голосуй за Оклахому!

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=286868

[HHike]

<div class='quotetop'>Цитата(Lexad * 12.8.2008, 12:24) [snapback]255646[/snapback]</div>

На кого следующего нападет Россия? Голосуй за Оклахому!

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=286868
[/b]

Интересно что в лидерах Азербайджан. Если учесть что Армения и Россия связаны договором о помощи то в случае нападения со стороны Азербайджана автоматически получиться таже ситуация что сейчас в Грузии

[General]

<div class='quotetop'>Цитата</div>

На кого следующего нападет Россия? Голосуй за Оклахому![/b]

Даёшь флешмоб!!! Оклахома в лидерах: 15 голосов!

[OT4E]

<div class='quotetop'>Цитата(Lexad * 12.8.2008, 11:24) [snapback]255646[/snapback]</div>

На кого следующего нападет Россия? Голосуй за Оклахому!

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=286868
[/b]

Нас уже большинство

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/worl...icle4509692.ece

<div class='quotetop'>Цитата</div>

The Russian attacks were met with Georgian artillery fire towards South Ossetia, despite President Saakashvili’s statement that he had called a ceasefire
[/b]

[Тактик]

Oklahoma +1

[LDeska]

Let&#39;s settle facts (do you agree with them?):
- Georgia is an independent state
- North Ossetia and Abkhasia are regions of Georgia. Those regions are not regarded as states by anyone, including Russia itself
- Russian soldiers crossed the Russian-Georgian border and entered those regions
- Russian soldiers went deeper inside if Georgia (confirmed by Russian officials)
- Russian aircrafts bombed Georgia (including for example the only pipeline - very peacekeeping move)

I know that the first attack was performed by Georgians but it does not justify military invasion from other country. Period. It&#39;s not helping to bring peace, it&#39;s escalating the conflict. As you can see now Abkhasia also attacked Georgia. It&#39;s a full-scale war, not "bringing peace".

I don&#39;t believe that Georgian attack killed so many civilians as you say, ut if it&#39;s true, then surely it should be judged. The same with Russians who will today (as Bush warned today) bomb civilian objects at Tbilisi.

Why when Russia goes for war (twice) to Chechnya it is "internal matter of Russia" and when Georgia does the same with it&#39;s separatist regions, it&#39;s no longer internal matter of Georgia?

The answer is that Russia don&#39;t care about Ossetinians. Russian government simply wants more land. Russians always wanted more land and still does - I hope that not all of you and that finally someday this last imperial state in Europe will overthrow and normal democratic power will be in charge of this great nation.

Now constructive part: what to do now. It&#39;s one of very few cases when I support my president - the solution is: to withdraw all the Russians from whole Georgia (including of course separatist regions), withdraw Georgians from those regions too, send UN mission to those regions. I would add from my side too: ensure autonomy of those two regions, but inside of Georgia - as in other countries like UK, Germany, Spain, Switzerland: local parliament, independent internal policy, but foreign policy would be in charge of Tbilisi.

[Lexad]

<div class='quotetop'>Цитата</div>

I know that the first attack was performed by Georgians but it does not justify military invasion from other country[/b]

As well as military invasions of Afghanistan, Iraq, Bosnia, Serbia. Period. The rules you&#39;re refferring to are just obsolete - noone follows them. And the start was made by the USA, power-drunk after the cold war victory.

So yes, in an fairy world Russia shouldn&#39;t have attacked Georgia, and Georgia shouldn&#39;t have massacred Tskhinvali.

[OT4E]

There is nothing similar in Chechnya and Georgia.

Gergia had commited the cruel act against it people(including Russian Citizens). I wont repeat any more sentece. You can read.

<div class='quotetop'>Цитата(sweeper * 12.8.2008, 9:15) [snapback]255629[/snapback]</div>

Leszek, look here
[/b]

But your gov and US gov(may be same guys) have another opinion. They dont even watch something. But you have significant difference and advantage. You can open your eyes and get true information.

<div class='quotetop'>Цитата</div>

The answer is that Russia don&#39;t care about Ossetinians. Russian government simply wants more land. Russians always wanted more land and still does - I hope that not all of you and that finally someday this last imperial state in Europe will overthrow and normal democratic power will be in charge of this great nation[/b]

Very funny, Leszek We need more land. We will conquare all the Earth and set communistic goverment.

"Вставай проклятьем заклейменный..."

...Sorry... I&#39;ve got update. One of russian famous bussinessman wanted to have country house in Georgia and payed for that operation.

[White Hawk]

<div class='quotetop'>Цитата</div>

Нас уже большинство[/b]

И я за Оклахому!

[IL2T]

<div class='quotetop'>Цитата(OT4E * 12.8.2008, 12:17) [snapback]255655[/snapback]</div>

and get true information.
[/b]

or even another.
Ossetian look

[OT4E]

<div class='quotetop'>Цитата(Leszek Deska * 12.8.2008, 12:08) [snapback]255651[/snapback]</div>

Now constructive part: what to do now. It&#39;s one of very few cases when I support my president - the solution is: to withdraw all the Russians from whole Georgia (including of course separatist regions), withdraw Georgians from those regions too, send UN mission to those regions. I would add from my side too: ensure autonomy of those two regions, but inside of Georgia - as in other countries like UK, Germany, Spain, Switzerland: local parliament, independent internal policy, but foreign policy would be in charge of Tbilisi.
[/b]

Huh? And order some tonns of Polish meat to make your happy?

[IL2T]

<div class='quotetop'>Цитата(Leszek Deska * 12.8.2008, 12:08) [snapback]255651[/snapback]</div>

- North Ossetia and Abkhasia are regions of Georgia.
[/b]

Are you sure? Why?

[White Hawk]

<div class='quotetop'>Цитата</div>

As you can see now Abkhasia also attacked Georgia.[/b]

I think differ. Abkhasian love to Georgian is so hot, that if somebody (and that somebody is not NATO or USA) don&#39;t stop them, than kills many hundreds of georgian people.
Abkhasia only execute UN-resolution to leave georgian mitalry forces from Abkhasian area.

[HHike]

Hello Leszek. Sorry for my english.
I am not a russian, i am armenian. Now in our republic is ending petrol and stopping almost all products export - import, because we have 2 ways - Georgia and Iran, bur Iran haven&#39;n railways with us. Many of armenians rests on Adjaria on Black Sea and now they go back.
But we all on side of Russia. i am explain. in 1991 all Republic say they renew their independance. But when Georgia was independed in last centure -osetia is not their land. in 20 years give the territory of Osetia? abxazia to Gergia, Karabax to Aderbadjan, Van, Ararat, Kars to Turkey as a present, because they want to do all wolrd revolution. That is the reason the Osetia separate from Georgia and not want to be their part.
The Georgia has a part where the 90 percent are armenian - Djavaxk. In last years by Saakashivili there was closed all armenians schools. our churches they named georgian, if your last name ending on "yan" you cant be a official civil worker. You must change your famaly on "shvili". They say georgia for giorgians and want to assimilate all others and that is way the armenian, abxazian, osetians not love the Saakashvili and Osetia and Abxazia never wanted to be a part of Georgia. About Russia. Where was you and your goverment when USA without of permissions of UN attack Iraq? when they bombing Serbia and give independince to Kosovo?? When Israil attac the Livan in last year?? And i can bring many other facts of dual standart from western countries.

[LDeska]

ot4e - I read your post, but I don&#39;t believe in that atrocity. It&#39;s only source is Russia which I don&#39;t believe at all. I&#39;m not taking as truth all from other agencies but when I see several independent sources plus I see tv coverage then I accept such information.

You&#39;re not right that our government is doing nothing.

http://www.tvn24.pl/3b3-48a14d87

Presidents of Poland, Lithuania, Estonia and Ukraine had just departed to Georgian capital. They also signed an open letter in which they condemn foreign invasion of Georgia made by Russia. They offered military presence (as an UN envoy) in those two regions. And they keep pressure on all European leaders to act as one entity to stop Russians from seizing Georgia.

I really do not understand your sarcasm. Don&#39;t you have at least a shade of empathy? Why you consider that invasion of other country is OK? Was it not what was Hitler saying when he seized Czechoslovakia? To protect Germans living abroad?

*Lexad:
<div class='quotetop'></div>

As well as military invasions of Afghanistan, Iraq, Bosnia, Serbia. Period. The rules you&#39;re refferring to are just obsolete - noone follows them. And the start was made by the USA, power-drunk after the cold war victory.[/b]

So you&#39;re trying to say that if someone did something, it justifies you? If Hitler killed all Jews, Putin can kill all Georgians? Right?
As for other places: Afghanistan was invaded as a UN action - I fully support it as it was a place to raise terrorists. Iraq was an action of USA without UN resolution - it was an act of unjustified aggression (plus there was a big action of disinformation to justify that). The difference between USA and Russia is that in Russia truth will be never shown, in USA they admitted that those informations were false and the chief of CIA was dismissed. Bosnia - you mean Serbia I think, it was also UN action and it was justified. The problem is why it took so long and so many people was murdered before NATO bombed.
But please don&#39;t change the subject. We can&#39;t fight all the time. European Union&#39;s biggest achievement is that in that most hot place in world - Europe, where wars were constant we have finally 60 years of peace. (I&#39;m not counting Yugoslavia as it was outside of EU then). It is possible to have such peace everywhere, only countries must give up their imperialism.

<div class='quotetop'></div>

So yes, in an fairy world Russia shouldn&#39;t have attacked Georgia, and Georgia shouldn&#39;t have massacred Tskhinvali.[/b]

So... we&#39;re starting to get closer here. Maybe it&#39;s a good time to stop that war and declare peace?

*HHike - I&#39;m an a lawyer of Bush. I don&#39;t want to explain what he did and to convince that it was ok. To be honest I don&#39;t support his foreign policy. I&#39;m not supporting Saakaszwili as well, I only do not agree to watch as Russia invades neighbours and kills civilians. Example: http://www.tvn24.pl/-1,1560904,0,1,holende...,wiadomosc.html Russian planes bombarded city of Gori - Dutch correspondent was killed. As you can see Russia is bombing civilians - very nice, peacekeeping action.

[Uncle_Givi]

Лешек, ты понимаешь смысл фразы "двойные стандарты" (я не знаю, будет ли звучать корректно "double standards").

[OT4E]

<div class='quotetop'>Цитата(Leszek Deska * 12.8.2008, 13:16) [snapback]255672[/snapback]</div>

ot4e - I read your post, but I don&#39;t believe in that atrocity. It&#39;s only source is Russia which I don&#39;t believe at all. I&#39;m not taking as truth all from other agencies but when I see several independent sources plus I see tv coverage then I accept such information.

You&#39;re not right that our government is doing nothing.

http://www.tvn24.pl/3b3-48a14d87

Presidents of Poland, Lithuania, Estonia and Ukraine had just departed to Georgian capital. They also signed an open letter in which they condemn foreign invasion of Georgia made by Russia. They offered military presence (as an UN envoy) in those two regions. And they keep pressure on all European leaders to act as one entity to stop Russians from seizing Georgia.

I really do not understand your sarcasm. Don&#39;t you have at least a shade of empathy? Why you consider that invasion of other country is OK? Was it not what was Hitler saying when he seized Czechoslovakia? To protect Germans living abroad?
[/b]

Our army was allready there from 19.. dont know exactly. They are called peace-makers. You may call them army. They are. And they were like gurantee of peace in the region. Now they were attacked by Georgian forces. Georgian forces also attacked peaceful people living there. What&#39;s your actions? Retreat and let them commit their insane cruel violent crime?
May be it is considered ok to wait without help while your people dies in Poland but not in Russia.


<div class='quotetop'>Цитата(Uncle_Givi * 12.8.2008, 13:24) [snapback]255676[/snapback]</div>

Лешек, ты понимаешь смысл фразы "двойные стандарты" (я не знаю, будет ли звучать корректно "double standards").
[/b]

"dual standarts"

[Lexad]

<div class='quotetop'>Цитата</div>

So you&#39;re trying to say that if someone did something, it justifies you? If Hitler killed all Jews, Putin can kill all Georgians? Right?[/b]

No. I&#39;m just saying we&#39;re living in the harsh world. However, Russian army isn&#39;t killing the civilians or mass-bombing the cities (few bombs might miss the target, but that&#39;s the reality of war) - unlike Georgian army methodically destroying Tskhinvali. So I just have no reasonable explanations for you pathos except misinformation. You, however, seem content to be misinformed.

[LDeska]

ot4e but those soldiers were there without UN mandate... technically it was occupation of Georgia, even if the inhabitants of those areas were happy with that. Russia plays hard - it&#39;s amplifying tensions between Caucasian nations to increase it&#39;s area of influence - look at the post of Armenian in this thread. It&#39;s just not right to play as it would be a computer game - it&#39;s real life, people are dying there because instead of bringing peace Russia wants this region to be as unstable as it is possible. Simply to gain something - to control oil pipelines, to extend it&#39;s influence, to gain some points among Russian voters.

I&#39;ve just read that Russia announced end to invasion of Georgia. At least one positive news in that thread.